tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.comments2023-03-31T11:47:01.975-04:00DYFLAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08866772657939595834noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-26902103872431286872011-08-11T10:36:46.122-04:002011-08-11T10:36:46.122-04:00I've never met a vegetarian that was rude, obn...I've never met a vegetarian that was rude, obnoxious, or preachy. Honestly, all of my veggie friends are great people who care about the planet, animals, and their own healthy lifestyles. They've never tried to challenge my diet, and I totally respect their choices.(Plus, they've got some great recipes!)<br /><br />Conversely, every vegan I've ever met has been beyond the pale when it came to forcing their beliefs on other people. Rude, obnoxious, zealous, and overbearing...would be the adjectives of choice. Perhaps I've just had extremely bad luck, but once I got compared to Hitler for liking a steak, I was pretty much done.Elizabeth Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17972893410555882013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-83161633751602049982011-07-17T20:40:12.805-04:002011-07-17T20:40:12.805-04:00Great post! "Bedtime Stories" was on tv...Great post! "Bedtime Stories" was on tv once - not that I ever planned on watching it, but the entire first portion of the movie made fun of organic eating and people who drive Priuses (at that point I had switched the channel but it still bothered me!).emma wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09521112479153552434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-36701650713289314662011-06-10T15:26:47.550-04:002011-06-10T15:26:47.550-04:00I resonate with your struggle. Hell, after reading...I resonate with your struggle. Hell, after reading <i> The Ominvore's Dilemma </i>, which featured my hometown as the place where cattle were mindlessly herded, sterilized, and slaughtered, I came pretty close to foreswearing meat.<br /><br />At the same time, though, I was exposed to a number of different perspectives on the eating of meat, and (long story short) my wife and I have decided that unless we, or someone we trust, can tell us where the meat came from, then we pass. So far, we've done this for a few months, and, while we are definitely eating meat only once a week, we both enjoy having a clean conscience. Plus, we know we're supporting folks who are committed to raising animals humanely. <br /><br />After all, these animal breeds have evolved with humanity in order for the relationship to be <i> mutually beneficial </i>, in that we make sure these species keep passing along their genes. You might still find the killing of these animals morally objectionable, but this particular argument does have some merit (IMO).<br /><br />All that to say: bravo on wrestling with these issues. Whether or not you and I end up sharing the same menu, if more Americans weighed the moral issues surrounding the consumption of meat (and all foods!), I don't think that would be a bad thing.Evan Scotthttp://ellipsisblog.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-50870248324814492392011-06-09T21:52:07.911-04:002011-06-09T21:52:07.911-04:00If you find it a struggle don't do it all at o...If you find it a struggle don't do it all at once. Maybe start with a day a week- maybe Vegan Fridays or something. Or just cut back on a few products all through the week. Cutting out milk for instance is fairly painless- I really like pacific brand rice milk. It comes from a company concerned about organics, non gmo etc. (on the down side it travels from the west coast to get here) I still eat ice cream, though not as much as I used to and thus far have no plans to cut out butter. For me the point is not to punish myself, but to do less harm. The important thing is to start taking steps in the right direction.<br /><br />My wife and son eat meat and often when I am cleaning up after a meal and throwing out left over meat my son hasn't eaten, I think about questions of "purity" and harm. If I ate his leftovers, I would consume less and do less harm to the planet as a result, but the idea of actually eating it isn't appealing. Am I really concerned about reducing suffering or is it something else?<br /><br />Yesterday night I was out with my family and in laws. I ordered lasagna since it didn't mention meat. When it arrived it was clear it had meat in it. I should have asked before ordering, but what was I supposed to do with dinner now that it had arrived? Fortunately I was able to switch my meal with a meat eating relative who had ordered a veg option that night. This relieved me of having to eat the meat (because it would have been wrong to send it back since it would have been thrown away) but the fact of the matter is that the exact same amount of suffering and meat was consumed that night, it just wasn't by me. <br /><br />It is important to consider our motivations and examine if we really are living up to our ideals. Are guilty feelings helpful however or are they just more senseless suffering? <br /><br />"..but what next? There is seemingly no end to the products produced through exploitation." Right.<br /><br />In zen one of the chants we regularly say has this line "Beings are numberless, I vow to save them" This is an impossible task of course, but the point is not turn away from the task in despair because of its scale, but to constantly use it to reevaluate our efforts and motivations. <br /><br />This link talks a bit more one the subject of vow and intention.<br />http://www.intrex.net/chzg/pat6.htmEdhttp://edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-53525614751571133962010-08-04T17:15:06.448-04:002010-08-04T17:15:06.448-04:00There is also the argument for the humane farms - ...There is also the argument for the humane farms - supporting people who ethically (both for the animals and for the environment) produce meat is enabling them to succeed. If all the educated carnivores went vegetarian, then the only people eating meat would be those who couldn't care less where their meat came from. <br /><br />There are people who have to eat meat for their health and I, while pregnant, have gone from eating meat around once a week to about five times a week since I need so much more iron and protein. That we are able to spend a little more and buy organic, free range, grassfed, (in everything including dairy and eggs) seems to be a more proactive way of promoting the humane treatment of animals rather than just abstaining from eating them altogether.emma wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09521112479153552434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-91553699276777634392010-08-04T12:26:57.605-04:002010-08-04T12:26:57.605-04:00This and the vegan issue to me are expressions of ...This and the vegan issue to me are expressions of the same concern- how to best survive and promote life for ourselves and others. Because I don't believe in an objective unchanging God given morality (I'm a Buddhist atheist), what I am left with is not so much a question of "right" or "wrong" choices, but rather skillful and unskillful ones. This means I have to guard against self justification and denial, but it also frees me from the question of guilt while still giving me a framework with which to base my choices on. Eating meat, being a vegetarian and being a vegan, all are part of a spectrum and there is nothing inherently more moral, pure or right about any of them as a choice to support life. Because they are all on a spectrum however we can still evaluate their relative effectiveness at reducing suffering, it just isn't something to feel superior or more moral about though. <br /><br />There is a limit to what I am willing to sacrifice and how much inconvenience I am willing to take on in the pursuit of alleviating climate change, pollution, world poverty and famine, not eating animal products to avoid suffering and so on. If there wasn't a limit then one would be forced into the position of the radical Jain who ritually starves to death because to do otherwise is to kill and inflict suffering on another being (life requires consumption of life). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara/2/hi/south_asia/5390162.stm<br /><br />For me it is enough to look into where my food comes from and make choices that minimize my impact (bearing in mind the understanding that some suffering no matter how I choose, is unavoidable).<br /><br />Where exactly this will lead I can't tell, but looking at eggs for instance I see a progression- First I did not care to investigate how they were produced. Then upon learning a little about production I became uncomfortable and after awhile started buying the more expensive "cage free/ free range" eggs..Then looking further into production this was not enough either and I sought out eggs from producers whose methods and values closer matched mine. Places like the farmer's market and WSM are where I buy these products now.<br />http://www.weaverstreetmarket.com/index.php?option=com_content&<br /><br />This is still not perfect of course because what happens to the male chickens? If the producer is not breeding their own chickens who are they buying them from? How are those chickens treated? Often male chicks are unwanted and culled in a gruesome manner. Knowing this I am willing to modify my habits and consumption to a certain degree to do less harm, but how far will I go? Right now I am happy with where I am on the spectrum and the fact that I am heading in an ever more responsible direction, without having to blame or berate myself for falling short of perfection.Edhttp://www.edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-75418624956056640452010-08-04T12:26:08.664-04:002010-08-04T12:26:08.664-04:00“As I said at the top, the implications of all of ...“As I said at the top, the implications of all of this are not easy, even for me. It was easy to give up meat and leather, but not so easy to give up dairy - I am still working through the logistics of that.”<br /><br />I eat eggs and dairy and don’t punish myself or feel terribly guilty about it either. I do drink soy (or rice or coconut or almond milk depending on what is cheapest week to week) instead of milk to reduce my dairy intake, but I eat plenty of cheese, ice cream and butter. Heck even Peter Singer considers himself a flexible vegan “I am largely vegan but I’m a flexible vegan. I don’t go to the supermarket and buy non-vegan stuff for myself. But when I’m traveling or going to other people’s places I will be quite happy to eat vegetarian rather than vegan.” http://motherjones.com/politics/2006/05/chew-right-thing <br /><br />I own leather and have no plans to throw it out as it would be wasteful to do so. In fact I think it would be a immoral and self serving to do. It makes more sense to keep wearing the few belts I have owned for 10+ years than to get rid of them and waste resources buying new cloth ones instead.<br /><br />“But dogs are carnivores. Meat is essential to their diet. I can't deny them what they require, but is the relative health of my pampered pets worth the life and happiness that other animals are forced to give up?”<br /><br />Well you could (although I don’t recommend it) try feeding your dog a vegetarian diet as peta suggests.<br />http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=34<br /><br />I tend to agree with you and the following link though, that argues a dog was built for meat and survives best on it.<br />http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html<br /><br />I don’t think you ought to be overly concerned with feeding your dog meat, but if it really is a huge concern then you could buy more “humane” meat (free range, grass fed etc) and prepare it yourself or skip getting a dog altogether. :(<br /><br />--continued in response 2--Edhttp://www.edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-66456478814432281752010-08-02T22:39:48.379-04:002010-08-02T22:39:48.379-04:00Lovely post!
"I don't want to hurt peopl...Lovely post!<br /><br />"I don't want to hurt people or animals or damage the planet. I want to be a good person, but the problem is that by simply existing and consuming goods and appreciating art (and you can't convince me that television and video games and movies are not art) I am inflicting harm on someone."<br /><br />So true and this is why I resonate with the zen perspective on the precepts:<br /><br />http://buddhism.about.com/od/theprecepts/a/firstprecept.htm <br /><br />"There are no moral absolutes in Buddhism and it is recognized that ethical decision-making involves a complex nexus of causes and conditions. ... When making moral choices, individuals are advised to examine their motivation--whether aversion, attachment, ignorance, wisdom, or compassion"<br /><br />It is impossible to exist without in some way killing or harming another being. A vegetarian diet may include countless unseen field mice caught in threshing machines, insects poisoned or otherwise killed, the destruction of forests and habitat for the production of soy, fertilizer either produced by animals (often in some form of exploitation, subject to culling and confinement) or produced using fossil fuels and all the misery that entails. Eating organic means the animal product (if one eats them) like dairy or eggs, is produced without antibiotics, even if the animal gets sick. Most often they are killed instead of treated.<br /><br />What all of this comes down to then is rather similar to the hippocratic oath- do no harm, a task that is impossible to achieve, but that can always be further perfected in some way. <br /><br />The question becomes: How does one choose, in this moment, to minimize suffering and support life? Will it be good enough to save all beings? Of course not, all we can do is our imperfect-failure-ridden best.<br /><br />The book "No Impact Man" take up these issues in an entertaining way and I heartily recommend it. (it is about 5x better than the movie)<br /><br />"It isn't enough to be a good person"<br />No, but one must start somewhere. The important thing is to start, then start again. Then start again...Edhttp://www.edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-76221969089249014912010-07-12T09:14:00.731-04:002010-07-12T09:14:00.731-04:00I'm really sorry I didn't see this when yo...I'm really sorry I didn't see this when you wrote it, Nathaniel -- it's so full of insight and wisdom and the bare, harsh truth. We didn't -- couldn't -- love Julian as much as you as Bronwen did (and do), but his loss hurt our hearts and we'll miss him for a long, long time too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-5247471303096787592010-07-11T22:03:13.386-04:002010-07-11T22:03:13.386-04:00I'm so sorry. Six years is still so young. At ...I'm so sorry. Six years is still so young. At least he had a loving family- that's all you can really ask for, right?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03273883463408606194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-58252020342491583442010-07-09T01:36:09.135-04:002010-07-09T01:36:09.135-04:00So, so sorry to read about Julian. You are all in...So, so sorry to read about Julian. You are all in our thoughts and I am glad Julian had the opportunity to live so beloved.emma wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09521112479153552434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-83642726798198868192010-07-08T23:49:09.591-04:002010-07-08T23:49:09.591-04:00I'm saddened by your loss. I loved seeing all ...I'm saddened by your loss. I loved seeing all the pictures of Julian- they made it obvious how great a joy to you he was and how well he was loved.Edhttp://edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-29609525298416988422010-07-08T12:08:34.969-04:002010-07-08T12:08:34.969-04:00At first glance, I misread the blog title as "...At first glance, I misread the blog title as "atheist, vegetarian, liberal dog." I thought it was describing Julian. It made sense to me, except for the dog food part. Then I realized I'd made a mistake. Goodbye, sweet Julian.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03995460447676183207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-80307377743176560252010-07-08T12:06:45.933-04:002010-07-08T12:06:45.933-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03995460447676183207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-75934029433835308362010-05-25T12:42:21.442-04:002010-05-25T12:42:21.442-04:00Then the last bit I wrote which got mutilated by m...Then the last bit I wrote which got mutilated by my html, said most of your post reminds me of the difficulty Buddhists are faced with when attempting to uphold the precepts. with a link to this http://books.google.com/books?id=8qmp9dqoAgsC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=mind+of+clover+not+killing&source=bl&ots=5WtGkMBP4Q&sig=9IfyLpeEvNuSDh46UDroeHfu-nU&hl=en&ei=tP37S6afMIT58Abi14yZBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=falseEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-57259874948707515302010-05-25T12:37:45.791-04:002010-05-25T12:37:45.791-04:00hmm my html made errors- here is the link I though...hmm my html made errors- here is the link I thought Emma might like http://www.msnbc.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22080399/msn.com/id/22080399/Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-72721557306456751432010-05-25T12:34:58.441-04:002010-05-25T12:34:58.441-04:00>And yet the fact that humans have a larger cap...>And yet the fact that humans have a larger capacity for understanding does not mean that we have more rights than others.Take squirrels for an example. They are manic and unpredictable, dashing out into streets right in front of cars. Sometimes they cross the street safely only to double back and get killed. To us this looks like complete foolishness. How could they not know better?< I agree, and in the above passage I found myself replacing "squirrels" with "children". Obviously children don't often "cross the street safely only to double back" but they (and teens) regularly engage in behaviors that on the surface may look nonsensical to an able minded fully developed adult. Tom Regan refers to children and animals as moral patients (something that must be cared for) and developed, normally abled, adults as moral agents. We still must respect and care for moral patients, even though they themselves are incapable of participating in the moral community.<br /><br />Emma mentioned animal difference and intelligence and I thought she might appreciate this<a href="javascript:void(0);" rel="nofollow">precepts.</a> It is compassion and "doing the best one can" (no matter that it continually falls short) that keeps one going when faced with the impossible task of eliminating suffering.Edhttp://edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-36334846124184291662010-05-25T00:49:35.541-04:002010-05-25T00:49:35.541-04:00Hmm... I always think it's odd to talk of ani...Hmm... I always think it's odd to talk of animals in terms of being dumb, as though there's some kind of standard of hierarchy of intelligence (not value, of course). <br /><br />My cat can sense when a storm is coming, when lightning will strike, moments before it actually happens. She can even identify our yard guys' truck when it's blocks down the street! Your dogs have intuitions and senses we can't fathom. <br /><br />I think you're right when you say we're more able to assert our will, but I don't know that I'd say that makes us more intelligent.emma wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09521112479153552434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-40299492392064495702010-02-19T16:13:17.058-05:002010-02-19T16:13:17.058-05:00I suppose you're right, Ed. I didn't reall...I suppose you're right, Ed. I didn't really spend as much time constructing my phrasing as I should have.<br /><br />It appears that I fell into the standard Western chauvinism by even using the term 'value' when what I meant was 'right to life.' <br /><br />I really don't believe that I have greater value than a chicken, cow or dog simply because I have higher brain function, although on a personal level I do value some specific humans higher than most animals. I also value several specific dogs (mine) higher than most humans in the world. But that's just me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08866772657939595834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-72169627572991283062010-02-19T15:59:52.096-05:002010-02-19T15:59:52.096-05:00"If there is greater value in the life of a h..."If there is greater value in the life of a human, then it would be because the fully-functioning human brain has a higher potential for pleasure and pain than that of a so-called lower animal."<br /><br />I may be nit picking here, but humans do not have "greater value" than non human animals. I think they may have a greater right to life (not value) because of their increased capacity to suffer and experience pleasure.<br /><br /><br />Have you read about "test tube" meat? <br /><br />http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/bio/eight-ways-vitro-meat-will-change-our-livesEdhttp://www.edwardlarson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-48392602613594723602009-06-15T16:32:51.782-04:002009-06-15T16:32:51.782-04:00You know, for a God-free humanist you'd sure m...You know, for a God-free humanist you'd sure make an awesome Buddhist. Death doesn't bother you? You are indeed enlightened...alone...or desensitized.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-20701040022311295652009-05-05T14:08:00.000-04:002009-05-05T14:08:00.000-04:00Pampered Chef all the way, man. I have an older ve...Pampered Chef all the way, man. I have an older version and they're just perfect. You buy only what you need, and each knife comes in its own sharpening case.<br /><br />https://www.pamperedchef.com/ordering/prod_details.tpc?prodId=20334&catId=4&parentCatId=4&outletSubCat=&viewAllOutlet=Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03273883463408606194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-68712290426933262452008-10-08T18:18:00.000-04:002008-10-08T18:18:00.000-04:00check out http://www.vegetarianshoesandbags.com/Th...check out http://www.vegetarianshoesandbags.com/<BR/><BR/>They may be able to meet your vegan needs! (boots, belts, shoes...)Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04769177679101729083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-89855457893242358102008-09-30T21:17:00.000-04:002008-09-30T21:17:00.000-04:00Man, I love that place. Some big beautiful blue bu...Man, I <I>love</I> that place. Some big beautiful blue butterfly landed on my nose and we stared at each other for about thirty seconds.<BR/><BR/>I almost hate to say it, but I also love the old Piedmont DC3 out back. I'm old enough to have flown in one of those from Albany to Burlington when I was about eight.<BR/><BR/>Btw, your blog is great these days. You wouldn't consider reciprocating the "Follow", would you?<BR/><BR/>Be at peace, my friend.ddjangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02466304895340888414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1303304997109360003.post-7543914575127611762008-07-11T11:04:00.000-04:002008-07-11T11:04:00.000-04:00I've been criticized for eating fish and calling m...I've been criticized for eating fish and calling myself a vegetarian to but it's just easier to say "I'm a vegetarian." than "I don't eat any meat, except fish." My kids don't eat meat, but I do give them fish sticks every once in a while. They aren't fans of beans and other lentils so I have to get the extra protein in when I can, besides the omega3's are good for them. I have only recently given up eating salmon and seafood. I don't want to eat it anymore. It took 4 years to get to that point though. So don't worry about it. Call yourself whatever you want. I think the technical term is a pescatarian, but no one is going to know what that is, so vegetarian is fine!Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108076343186342995noreply@blogger.com